Talking with Karl Koch about SFTBH – Part III

Note: This interview dates to around October 2007

MY: I was hoping you could clear something up for me. Rivers gave us the lyrics for several songs, but I noticed when he posted the music that the lyrics he gave us were broken up by character and not necessarily in the order they appear in the song. Thus, we have Please Remember like this:

Please Remember (:37)
[Jonas:]
Please remember I’m only a friend
You’re too crazy to settle down with
I don’t love you but I cant help myself
Please Maria, it wont ever be
Wont ever be (2X)
I love you
I do
[Maria:]
A friend who boinks me
Then why lead me on?
Ill make you love me (3X)
Love me

KK: It’s staggered pretty much one over the next line, like call and response but they’re singing over each other partially. Sort of like this:

Please remember I’m only a friend

.........................A friend who boinks me
...........................................You’re

too crazy to settle down with

....................Then why lead me on?
....................................I don’t

 love you but I can’t help myself

.....................I’ll make you love me
......................................Please

Maria, it won’t ever be

....................I’ll make you love me
..................................Won’t ever be
.........................................I’ll make you love me
..................................Won’t ever be
I love you
Love me
I do

MY: You Won’t Get With Me Tonight seems to be a combo of Who You Callin’ Bitch and this song; any connection, musically?

KK: Nothing obvious to my memory. All rocking.

MY: Good News comes at the halfway point in the opera and we don't know the words. It comes at the same point in both track lists, and I figure it has some interesting development since it follows She’s Had a Girl:

She's Had a Girl

Good News!
Now I Finally See

Now I Finally See echoes SHAG and I'd like to know what happens in between, so I was hoping that you could divulge these lyrics, too. When Rivers posted the sheet music (to other songs) he said it was really complicated, which is exciting.

KK: Good News is AKA Dude, We’re Finally Landing (as you know), and that’s one of
the lyrics. It’s really not a lot to go on, as what may be the key words are very hard to make out (2 lines singing over each other, pretty but hard to make some of it out). It’s something like:

(dialogue between 1 and 2)

(1 is harmonized often, probably means its more than one character in unison)

1. Dude, dude, dude...
2. What?
1. Good news! Good news! Good news!
2. What’s so important that you (long line basically saying why are you bothering me in my room, hard to make out details)
1. (Singing counterpoint over the above line) Now we’re landing, everyone’s... (long line basically saying we’ve finally achieved our goal, hard to make out details)
1. (later joined by 2) Now were finally landing [much counterpoint on this line, back and forth, complex, all characters throwing it back and forth]

All (or 1). Get your stuff together, 'cause now were finally gonna land.
(slower now)
1. Good news! Good news! Good news!
2. So…
1. Good news! Good news! Good news!
2. (under the above line, counterpoint) ????  is a ????? now ...
(next track)
...Now I finally see what it is I want…

MY: Is it possible that the "??? is a ??? now" from Good News might be "Jonas/Maria is a father/mother now". It seems that this might be the case... Also, does any mention of Nomis pop up anywhere?

KK: I just cannot hear it, it’s too mushed together.

MY: Finally, does the last line "now" go into Now I Finally See?

KK: Yeah, that’s what I was trying to show there. A direct segue.

MY: On the subject of Now I Finally See, is it the same melody as the end of SHAG?

KK: No. its sounds like it could be in the same song as Devotion, it’s the same slow heavy 3/4 time swing, and it matches up pretty well with it – picture if Devotion had a new part, kinda. I’m referring to the prechorus where it’s like 'sad to say I pushed you away…'

MY: I was reading through our previous discussions on the Special Coda reprise, and something jumped out at me: "They sang overlapping parts of all 3 songs, creating a song cycle thing, like when you do "row, row, row your boat" and the next person comes in on the next line, etc." So I assume 'they' is Brian, Rivers, and Matt? If so, that must have been something to hear! Does this still exist?

KK: Yes, and yes!

MY: Do all of the in-between Pinkerton/SFTBH masters still exist? I know you have the cassette demos and what ended up on the CD-R, but do you still have the 'studio'
versions that didn't make the cut?

KK: I do, but don’t call them masters – they’re just rough mixes done that day in the studio. The masters would be 24 track 2" reels somewhere in Universal Music's vaults now.

MY: I just want to know what's out there to look forward to...

KK: If you see it in the recording history, in 98% of the cases, I was going off of an item in my own possession.

MY: Also, what about the demos that aren't on the CD-R? Are they on a separate CD, or just on tape? I really want to hear the demos for the Pinkerton songs to see how they compare to the final versions, especially IJTOTLOMD. Kind of like the Blue demos we've heard...

KK: There are maaaaaannny other CD-Rs you haven't seen. However, these CD-Rs all were copied from either cassettes or DATs that Rivers compiled from cassettes. Rivers still possesses the DATs and in many cases he has the original 4 and 8 track cassette masters of the pre-ADAT/DA-88 stuff (like the stuff up to about '95). I had those for years because back in the 90's he decided to throw them away and I offered to take them instead. More recently, he asked for them back and I gave them back to him. Stuff I have on cassette dubs from the old days is mostly the same that’s on his DATs and therefore the CD-Rs. But I also have some cassettes of recordings that were either unique or one of only a few copies, that I’ve since dubbed to CD-R for him more recently, so he has everything available to look at and consider and research. There would be more masters still in existence but Rivers taped over or destroyed some masters back in the 90's after he did his "definitive" mixdowns, warts and all, assuming he'd never want to revisit/revise/remix the master again. He liked the "warts" that came with not knowing how to use something properly, hence weird/annoying/funny errors like the Blast Off! rude cut beginning.

MY: So how does the IJTOTLOMD demo sound compared to the end product? Does the synth still sound as good?

KK: Yes, it’s absurd. The demo is a tad bit slower than the final. It’s also sorta out of tune! heh heh

MY: Something else I have been wondering is if you listen to the SFTBH stuff very often, or at all? It's funny that you have access to all of these things that no one else does.

KK: Honestly, I very rarely bust out any weezer stuff! Not because I don’t love it but I think it represents particular eras of nostalgia to me - I just wouldn’t casually put it on in the car, you know? Pulling it out is like a project - revisiting the ancient scrolls, haha.... especially the early stuff, its precious to me. And the big-time stuff on the albums – I’ve heard it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many times to really get into it musically. It’s like it’s hardwired into me. That’s both good and bad, but I guess I wouldn’t have it any other way.

MY: You said "I really feel that what Rivers put on tape wasn't the whole shebang, but rather the significant highlights of what would really have to be fleshed out if it was truly to be staged as a musical, or really, fleshed out into an album's worth of music"... Did Rivers have more ambitious plans for SFTBH, like an actual stage musical? That would have been amazing. I still think he should get the players back and do it again.

KK: Well, my opinion comes from: the total time is so short. Even if he didn’t realize it at the time, if they had gone into the studio back then to do SFTBH it would have been even shorter than Green [weezer (2001), aka The Green Album] and many of the short songs would not qualify as "songs" to Geffen - too short. So I feel, both practically and from my own musical opinion that many of these pieces are just too short - every "real musical" has overtures and extended link pieces, and don’t blast thru a whole story (including a 9 month pregnancy) in 25 minutes. I just think Rivers would have developed it more, had the SFTBH thing really gone into the final stages.

The original idea was to really perform it as a rock opera – we’d have to have guest artists on the road with us (Rachel, etc.) to play/sing their parts, there’d be appropriate lighting, stage props to some extent, etc. but no "acting" - just the songs performed by the assigned "actors"(musicians/singers) (unless Rivers envisioned dialogue parts just like in a real musical. If he did, he never said so).

I remember Matt and Rivers talking about it excitedly back when Rivers first revealed the idea. All agreed it would be super hard to pull it off, but no one was saying 'no' except maybe Pat, who surely was more interested in rocking out on the drums than doing a "musical". But Pat’s always been less into the 'cheesy'/cultured/musical/pop stuff that Rivers loved so much.

MY: Can you add any more insight about Rivers' comment that ROTR [The Rentals’ first album Return of the Rentals (1995)] helped kill SFTBH? You say Matt was really into it; did he help write or anything? I can see how ROTR had the same 'sound' as SFTBH...

KK: I think (and mind you - all of this is "I THINK" - 'cause I could be reading it wrong!) it was a case of Rivers feeling his sonic concept (space rock/moog heavy) was hijacked by Matt, who got really, really excited by it and pushed it to new heights as his Rentals album developed from guitar bass drums 4-tracks to fleshed out songs. Matt had a way of hearing something great and making it his own, usually improving on the idea. But Rivers doesn't (didn't) like feeling like a follower, and if SFTBH came out after ROTR, it would have looked like Matt's influence was leading the band's direction. I suspect that didn't sit well with Rivers, who was coming off massive surprise success and felt he had a stage to do exactly what he wanted now - and he wanted the credit for his ideas. You know, the ego and all that. Matt wasn't trying to piss anyone off mind you; he was just inspired by what he heard.

Another example is the for the ladies' sessions, which were directly inspired and influenced by Josh Haden's then-new band, Spain. I got the impression that Matt got a bit of a reputation amongst the Poop Alley [Poop Alley Studios] crowd as a bit of a rip off artist for a while there, but no one could deny his songs were powerful and ultimately way more successful than any of the stuff he was influenced by. The other Poop Alley types were no dummies either, they all appeared on the Rentals album and videos etc., because they knew Matt had something going on.

MY: I wanted to tell you what Joan Wasser said to me when I started this whole research thing. I thought you might like to know: “This is the first I have heard of [SFTBH] but I love the idea and at the time, I had a bad crush on Rivers... I agree it sounds like it would have been great.”

KK: That's rad, thanks! I remember that Rivers has said he never told her his plans before SFTBH was dropped, so that makes sense. Also no big surprise she had the crush - being on a summer van tour in the '94 scene, everyone in their early 20s, especially when both bands were getting on [MTV's] 120 Minutes, well... the energy was pretty intense all around. I thought she was seeing someone in the Dambuilders but maybe that was before and they were just friends at the time we toured together. She was so hot! hahaha... Many people certainly had a crush on her! Odd facts you may know: she was in a serious relationship with Jeff Buckley at the time he died. Eric Masunaga is a producer now. The drummer (Kevin March) is the dude who played on The Rentals' Seven More Minutes. Not sure what happened to the singer dude (Dave Derby). He was a cool guy.

MY: How about the touring with that dog. and Rachel? The weezer guys seem to have an interesting relationship with them, too (benefit 45s, guest spots, sound checks...). Anything similar? I recall having read somewhere that some of the Blue album songs are about one of the Haden girls but I don't really know a lot about the relationships that the band members were in.

KK: There was interest in both directions, but even I don't know how far the various combinations got. I doubt much beyond flirting, but that’s just my hunch. Everybody was entranced by the that dog. girls.

MY: Are Joan and Maria similar at all? I doubt Rivers got her pregnant, but aside from that...

KK: ha ha, I don’t think they got close enough to exchange more than information. Are they similar? No clue. Rivers had Hispanic girlfriend(s?) back in his early 20s, so perhaps his early experiences influenced his SFTBH semi-Latino characters.

MY: In a way, the SFTBH 'space mission' could be a metaphor for a tour with different bands (cooped up all year)... I never thought of it that way, though I do believe it's a metaphor for the rock life in general... Thoughts?

KK: It absolutely is, in my opinion. There’s no empirical evidence, but I recall the vibe back then, and it seems to my memory that that comparison was certainly made at times, at least casually as the songs were discussed by the band.

MY: Do you know what sort of influences/references Rivers was going on? You mentioned a few of those musicals and rock operas in the Buddyhead notes, but can you think of anything that inspired the sound/story or anything? Was Rivers really into space stuff? He mentioned Don Juan being the inspiration for Wuan and Dondo, so I'd be interested in knowing what else was inspired by literature and pop culture. Like "Nomis", what does that mean? You probably don't know any of this, but maybe you have some insights or memories that you can relate this to...

KK: Well, like everyone his age, Star Wars was massive when he was growing up, so the idea of setting it in space makes sense. But I know of a few possible influences that would be more direct: in 1994 we were introduced to the British TV comedy “Red Dwarf". Look into that for some possible influence, he loved that show, especially season 3. Also, Mystery Science Theater 3000. Both shows are goofy but the shared theme is 'stuck in space'. Another possibility, though I’m only speculating, is that Rivers may have seen the Japanese cartoon “Star Blazers” (like I did) while growing up. It was an addictive space action drama where they had to go get some sort of cure for a plague on Earth, but it was like across the galaxy somewhere. Plus Earth was being bombarded by some alien enemy and the team that was sent was constantly besieged by attacks, etc. But he might have never seen this show for all I know.

MY: The recent news that Geffen will be releasing Rivers's demos is super exciting, more so because of Rivers's comments in Rolling Stone confirming that some SFTBH will be included. I noticed that Rivers commented on his MySpace about this back in April '06 ("Thanks for your interest in these songs! I'm putting up the lyrics now because I suddenly realized that I can. I'll also put up the sheet music (when I have time) so that you can play them for each other! I'll release my home demos as soon as I am legally able."). Do you have any insight about Rivers's efforts to get this done? Is he more interested in SFTBH these days? How did Geffen react?

KK: Well, I’m not telling the tracklisting, but there are some goodies in the mix for sure. You’ll see soon enough. I don’t know/can’t say how things shifted, but it’s a pleasant surprise. Holding the music back from Geffen was of course going to mean waiting till weezer was out of their contract before there was any hope of the stuff getting released. Whatever changed was probably Geffen’s attitude toward how much control they would have over the project and the music – that’s my guess anyway.

MY: Oh yeah, did you have any input on the project or was it all Rivers?

KK: It was all Rivers. But, I imagine that the general interest in his demos over the years (from everyone from me to the fans) has always been in the back of his mind, and I guess the signs of his own interest have been there since he himself was leaking/sharing certain tracks as far as 5 years back to the RCB [Rivers Correspondence Board], etc., up to the sheet music MySpace sharing last year. I’m just glad it’s his initiative and interest that’s driving the project, as opposed to someone dragging him into it halfheartedly. That’s why the CD(s?) and book(s?) are going to rule.

MY: Awesome, I can’t wait! Thanks again, Karl.