More from Karl - Part IV

Note: this interview  dates to around October 2007


MY: How does “Negativland” (Recorded May ‘93) relate to “Blast Off!”, anyway? Are they basically the same, or are there large lyrical differences that can be taken as non-SFTBH? 5/93 is way before SFTBH... “Tired of Sex”, “Why Bother?”, “Longtime Sunshine”, “Getchoo”, and “Waiting On You” are listed in the Recording History as being from January '94, so maybe SFTBH was in Rivers' mind when he did those demos? I also see “Waiting On You” was started in July '93 as a piano demo.

KK: “Negativland”’s lyrics have nothing at all to do with SFTBH. “Blast Off!” is a total reuse of the music with new lyrics.

The January ‘94 stuff was not conceived as SFTBH, but SFTBH did of course develop out of all post Blue (post fall ‘93) recordings, as they were the next things Rivers wrote and was presumably assuming would go on a new album if they proved to be good. For example, I know “Tired of Sex”'s original inspiration was not for SFTBH, it was literally Rivers freaking out about Rivers’s own feelings - not about a character. I think, in this case, like most artistic works, inspiration tends to grow from seemingly unrelated origins, but once the idea crystallizes, progress leaps ahead. So once SFTBH was the plan (late ‘94), what he had written to that point was analyzed to see if it could be integrated or not.

Side bar – Rivers’s recent revelation that “Lisa” was not SFTBH was news to me - but not too surprising either - as I recall him back then grouping it into the rest of the SFTBH songs - even though I knew back at the time it was a song a la “Susanne” - about a real Lisa who helped the band. I think he wanted it to integrate but maybe felt half-hearted about it and later when SFTBH was done/abandoned, it reverted to a "regular song". Just my take.

MY: I was watching the VCD the other night and I noticed at the start of the Pink Triangle video, you introduce it as being a new song you'd not heard, and this was January 1996. In the Recording History, you say this:

“January 1996: more "Pinkerton" sessions :  Sound City Studios; Van Nuys, CA.

The recording lasted about 2 weeks. During this time, the following songs were worked to semi-completion:

No Other One

El Scorcho

Pink Triangle

Getchoo

Tired of Sex

And then....

 

"Spring Break" 1996; continued "Pinkerton" recording sessions

Sound City Studios, Van Nuys , CA

Rivers flew out to LA, and the band got together to continue plugging away at the new album. By this time Rivers had had some major breakthroughs, having written "El Scorcho" , "The Good Life" , Across the Sea" , "Falling for you" and "Butterfly" during his strange months at Harvard.

Summer '96 : "Pinkerton" wrapped up

After a ton of last minute studio juggling, all 10 tracks were eventually finished and mixed, plus:

 

Devotion

You Gave Your Love To Me Softly (new version)

Waiting on You

I Just Threw Out the Love of My Dreams (w/ Rachel Haden)

Also nearly finished were: 

I Swear It’s True

Getting Up and Leaving 

Both of these were worked on to the point of just needing a final mixdown. Although this was never official, it’s nearly certain that they would have been the b-sides to "Pink Triangle", if that had been put out as a "for sale" single. Of course, that never happened, and the songs were never dusted off and finished up.”

Ok, so, in the VCD "Making of Pinkerton", we see the band playing “IJTOTLOMD”, “Superfriend”, “Tired of Sex”, “Pink Triangle”, “El Scorcho” and “Across the Sea”, all of which are performed at Sound City Studios. I am wondering what the dates of each recording were, as the footage is kind of unclear. I assume that “IJTOTLOMD” and “Superfriend” were both part of the January 1996 session, though you haven't listed either song in the recording history. “IJTOTLOMD” is mentioned as part of the '95 Electric Lady sessions (which I guess are considered SFTBH sessions) and then later in the "wrapped" part, with Rachel's vocals, so these are clearly different recordings. That would make FOUR versions of “IJTOTLOMD”: demo, Electric Lady, January 1996, and the final one, right?

“Across the Sea” is mentioned in the Spring Break section and you allude to it in the Fall '95 section where “WYCB” and the couple other late SFTBH songs are done. I see it's in the COR [Catalogue of Riffs] as being written in Feb 1996, so that means that the January session, if it wasn't for SFTBH or Pinkerton (which I assume is defined by “ATS”, “The Good Life”, “Falling for You”, and “Butterfly” - yet to be written), was for something in between the two, especially if “Superfriend” is still there (unless it was just a 'standalone' song at this point, outside of SFTBH, which may explain the lack of the first verses in that particular performance...). I just find it odd that “Superfriend” was attempted if SFTBH was abandoned by Jan '96. Were any other SFTBH songs attempted in Jan '96 that aren't listed on the recording history?

KK: I need to update and fix the history to reflect what turned up on the videotapes, thanks for the major reminder on that! I don’t recall any other SFTBH material being tried in January ‘96 or later, - if it was, I didn’t videotape it at least. Any such surprises (which I strongly doubt exist) would ONLY be on the 24/48 track master reels (where that 1/06 Superfriend may yet reside, unmixed by the way!)

MY: So is this correct?:

IJTOTLOMD: Jan '96 (I assume)

Superfriend: Jan '96 (I assume)

TOS: Jan '96 (I assume)

Pink Triangle: Jan '96 (for sure)

El Scorcho: Jan '96 or Spring '96 (not sure, maybe I need to watch it again and compare facial hair...)

ATS: Spring '96 (for sure)

Sorry if that's confusing, I'm just trying to sort out the details and thinking aloud a bit here.

KK: I don’t have any arguments against this analysis. As for “El Scorcho”, I remember being on a tour with that dog. in early spring ‘96 and telling some weezer fans in Denver about it, even singing the chorus with the basic chords on guitar. So that would be soon after I heard it for the first time. I THINK “El Scorcho” was worked on in Jan ‘96 but not nailed till spring ‘96 (multiple attempts).

I do recall the actual Rachel “IJTOTLOMD” was recorded late in the game, I think after the semester, like June ’96; or at least that’s when she came in to sing it.

Yes, “Tired of Sex” was January ‘96 for sure.

I know that “Blast Off!” was not attempted after that 8/95 Electric Lady session.

I thought I had written somewhere in there that there was a transitional period, where SFTBH was no longer referred to but some of the songs were still worked on. I believe now that it was a dual purpose thing: Rivers (in 1/96) thinking ‘if this goes well, maybe the SFTBH thing will go back on track........but even if that doesn’t happen its ok, the net effect will be good songs well recorded, and eventually an album of some sort. And maybe this new idea I’ve been secretly contemplating, Puccini thing will work out.’

(I’m just speculating, I don’t know when the Madam Butterfly light bulb went off, but I’m guessing it was right after the January ’96 session when he went back to Harvard.)

MY: The next thing I am interested in is how does the Electric Lady version of “Longtime Sunshine” sound? There are a couple of takes listed; are they any good/different? I imagine they SOUND great.

KK: I don’t recall. I remember Rivers recording them on a grand piano in the big studio A. I think he rejected them because it didn’t sound dirty/‘down home’ enough (too pro). I do remember Pat drumming, because I was asked to drum (badly) on a scratch take before Pat showed up that day. I think there’s bass too. Not totally sure, and I’m 2500 miles from the CD right now.

MY: Finally, I was just going through the history looking at I Swear It's True and Getting Up and Leaving (songs I assume would be released on a hypothetical (in my dreams) Pinkerton: Deluxe Edition).

We have:

I Swear It’s True 8/93 (available as an mp3)

I Swear It’s True 8/11/93 : Practice Demo recorded by Ric Ocasek (I assume this the TBA: DE version, which is thus available)

I Swear It’s True Summer '96 (this one is unheard...)

Getting Up and Leaving was recorded at the same time, all three times.

Is the '96 version much different/better/worse than the earlier incarnations? It's a cool song, so if you have anything to say about either, I'd welcome it!

KK: The 8/93 version [of GUAL] is a classic Rivers 8-track demo with the same awesome/lo-fi yet fantastic sound as all the 92/93/94 Rivers 8-tracks you have heard. The 8/11/93 practice demo is great because it’s a full band thing (though not without a few mistakes, etc.), and the breakdown is multi-part vocals between Rivers, Jason [Cropper] and Matt (in falsetto). The 1996 version is excellent too, finally a pro recording, but Rivers changed the verse vocals (he has since changed them back/reverted, as evidenced by the recent sheet music thing). At one point some years back when I’d commented (after finally hearing this version - I didn’t have it till I turned it up on the rough cassette mix in Rivers’s own stash in '00) that the lyrics weren’t the same. He said "Yeah, .... why did I do that??" I was like "Dude, I wasn’t there for that session, so I have no idea." (I wasn’t in Los Angeles for a few bits of the Summer ‘96 stuff before we turned the album in and flew to Europe to start the tour). This is the session that I think Scott Riebling or Adam Orth played bass on. There were 2 separate times Matt was in the U.K. and Rivers went ahead and got a temp bass player in for the session. I’m forgetting the sequence of events offhand. I think somehow Scott worked on I Swear It’s True and GUAL in Boston and later Adam re-did them in L.A.

Incidentally, the tragic tale of the missing rough mix tapes originates here - I had about 40 rough cassettes (before daily CD-Rs of rough mixes they were put on tapes) by July '96, and put them in a huge padded envelope to ship home. We were at Geffen and were catching our ride to the airport from there. I packed them up, addressed it and put it in the Geffen mail, and it never got home, as I discovered months later. I have no idea what might have been on those tapes, but if they hadn’t been lost, there would have been a much clearer picture of the sequence of what was recorded and when. Though I’m almost positive there were no mixdowns of 'lost ' recordings like “Superfriend” on them, just multiple early versions of the various Pinkerton tracks.

MY: Maybe a further question would be whether you think the 'pro' SFTBH music might see the light of day at some point. Rivers's demos are one thing, but full band versions (even if incomplete) are something else altogether.

KK: I would say there’s no reason to rule out any possibilities. Not anymore, anyway.

MY: Nice.